Post by CTGull on Dec 5, 2023 19:41:51 GMT -5
THE STORY: I originally did a neck reset on this guitar a little over 1 year ago. It was the hardest one ever!! And a near disaster! An epic battle that I won! Which is the only option. yamahavintagefg.boards.net/thread/531/customer-repair-1970-yamaha-230
But nearly a year later, there is a problem. He first contacted me on July 31st, but wasn’t able to find the time to drive down until yesterday. He had taken it out of the case and noticed the action was high, then found a gap at the heel. It hadn’t been dropped, but there might have been some enthusiastic playing by some kids at a recent family gathering.
He drove down yesterday, stayed semi-locally overnight, delivered it to me this morning, then he took the ferry to Long Island NY to visit his family. He’s planning on drive back Wednesday. That means I have to get the whole repair done TODAY! Including gluing the fretboard extension back to the top!
I took a half day, leaving at 10am. Then the fun began! I wasn’t sure what to expect, but whatever it was, I was planning on converting it to a bolt on, putting a screw thru the heel into the neck block to be sure this is a permanent fix. I had already bought a #10 x 2-1/2” stainless steel pan head sheet metal screw. It may not be pretty, but it’ll be solid! With the time constraint, there aren’t too many options. I HAD to get the joint back together today, then let the glue dry for 12 hours before putting full string tension on it. And be sure the neck alignment is correct.
OBSERVATIONS: The strings were loosened, but the neck is stiff, the gap doesn’t move. The heel gap is .05”. I can’t measure the neck projection since I can’t close the heel gap. The action is very high (see the picture with the heel gap and no string tension), although I didn’t measure it because of the heel gap (it wouldn’t be the exact action) and not wanting to stress the old strings.
DAY 1 (12/5/23) – I put the guitar in the neck jig and attempted to close the gap. It closed maybe .02”, but after releasing the clamp it sprung back to .05”. Not good. Removed the strap button and put it in a small zip lock bag. Capoed the strings behind the nut and at the 7th fret (to try to minimize string tangling). Loosened the strings and removed the bridge pins, putting them in the bag with the strap button, and removed the strings from the bridge.
Put the heat shield on the top and used the halogen light and spatulas to loosen the fretboard. WOW!! Almost a half hour of heating and struggling!! That fish glue is gooey!!!
Since there’s a huge heel gap, I know the steam is going to pour out of it and the neck isn’t going to come off, or it would take a long time with probably lots of finish blushing. I had designed a 14th fret drill jig that will intersect the tapered dovetail, and hopefully allow the “heat sticks” to soften the glue and remove the neck. This is the maiden voyage!! I put a piece of tape at 4” on a 1/16” diameter x 6” long drill. This will drill a 3” deep hole. The treble side hole definitely hit wood. The bass side hole hit almost nothing. I also found the body of the drill jig needs to be longer to make it easier to clamp, about another ½” on the 15th fret end, and about 2.5” on the 13th fret end. The next problem is WHERE are the heat sticks?? I haven’t used them in a year or more. I put them somewhere while cleaning up my workbench. I found them in a cabinet. I sprayed some water into the heel gap, and in the holes, put the 3-1/4” long heat sticks into he holes, leaving ¼” exposed to be able to pull them out with pliers (the sticky glue won’t let them leave). At 12 minutes the top of the heel was very hot, but the bottom was not. Removed the heat sticks with the pliers (the treble side was very difficult) and wiggled. The neck was quite loose, but not as much on the bass side. Some end pressure and more wiggling. NOPE!! The treble side of the fretboard was up about 1/8” but the bass side hardly moved at all. Took the guitar out of the jig. Sprayed water in the sides of the heel, put the guitar back in the neck jig, injected more water into each hole, and put the 4-1/4” heat sticks in to get the heat to the bottom of the dovetail (the ends don’t get as hot). Heated another 7 minutes, removed the heat sticks and the neck just about fell off! The drill jig went right down the edge of the dovetails, as expected! Over 2 hours to get the neck off! AND!! The dovetail piece I had originally made DIDN’T fail! WHAT cause the heel to separate?? I always make the joint tight!
I used the hair dryer to dry both parts. Used super glue to re-attach a small piece of top that the spatula dug up on the bass side. There was a gap on the outer edge, so I used amber tinted super glue to fill the gap. Lots of sanding & scraping to get that area flat. And sanded two parts of the neck joint and got it fitting together with the fretboard flush with the top. It feels good! No slop!
Removed the lower screw from the dovetail block. It is 1” long, and 5/8” into the neck. It definitely wasn’t loose or stripped!
Used a long .122” diameter drill to drill thru the neck heel from the inside, paying more attention to coming out in the middle vs. a vertical tilt, just a little bit off. Put the neck in the pocket, held it tight, and used the same drill to drill thru the neck block. Then I opened the hole in the neck block to .140” diameter (the minor diameter of the screw thread), and opened the clearance hole in heel to .203, starting with .156” and then .188”. Used a .020” saw to make cuts in the heel a little more than 3/16” away from center, then filed between the cuts to get an approx. 3/8” wide flat for the head of the screw to rest on. Colored the bare wood with mahogany marker.
Put the neck & body together, inserted the screw, and tightened it. It looks great!!
It took 15 minutes to separate the tangled 12 strings and attach them to the bridge with the pins. Tightened the strings to “about D”, a few a bit over. The octave G broke. No surprise. The BIG surprise is the action is 11/64” low D and 9/64” high D!! WAAAAH??!! The neck relief is OK. The neck is centered. Before tightening the strings there was about a .005” heel gap. Now there is an approx. .010”/.015” heel gap. Maybe the wood compressing slightly under the screw head. Removing the screw, I find the screw head did sink in a little on the bass side, the flat must not be perfectly perpendicular to the screw.
Well, the action is way too high!! And I have no idea why!! Onward to neck reset number 2! Undercut the heel with the 1/8” ball burr and the Dremel. Set the tape on the heel at .05”, filed & sanded to the tape. Put the guitar in the neck jig and tuned to “D”. The action is 3/32” low D and 1/16” high D. Sold!
That only took a little over ½” hour, not bad. I’m glad I checked, although I have no idea why the action was so far off. I didn’t check the initial action because of the loose heel, but it was really high. The .05” heel gap wouldn’t have caused action that high.
It lives again! Well, after a few minor details to check before gluing the fretboard.
I had filled an area of the top at the edge of the fretboard extension with amber tinted super glue, I scraped that a little to eliminate the shiny areas. Then I applied fish glue to the bottom of the fretboard extension and the top, attached the neck, installed the screw (leaving it slightly loose), clamped the guitar in the neck jig, installed the 4 sets of outer strings & tuned to have some tension on the neck to pull it into the body, tightened the screw, and clamped the fretboard down in 2 places. I also put the (4) additional bridge pins in the holes and reinstalled the strap button. No parts left behind!
It's done for now!! The drying time for fish glue is 12 hours. It will be clamped for 10.5 hours before I’ll have to unclamp it to bring it to work. I’ll heat the fretboard extension with the hair dryer a couple of times to speed up the drying. I’ll have to find a place to put it in the bedroom so I can quickly unclamp it, put it in the case, and leave for work early in the morning.
So, I guess a ONE DAY neck reset is possible!! As long as it’s done with a heat stick and not flooded with steam. Although they typically need some fret levelling, which would add another day.
I had originally made a detailed plan of how I was going to remove the neck and convert it to bolt on. Somehow, that changed, A LOT!! I made quite a few adjustments as I went, as I thought of better ways to do things, or as an additional problem was presented.
But, in the end, it was finished in about 6 hours. I’m glad I took a half day vacation, otherwise I would have been up VERY late!
The action with no string tension was high!
The heel gap.
Getting ready to do battle!
Heating the fretboard extension.
Getting under the fretboard extension. It was really tough!! The fish glue I use is really gooey when it's heated!
Wet the 14th fret.
Pulled the 14th fret.
Use a 3D printed drill jig to drill (2) compound angle holes into the neck joint. I had 3D modelled the neck joint and used that to design the drill jig.
It worked!
You can see the burn mark make by the heat stick!! Perfectly down the treble side of neck joint!
You can't see a burned hole on the bass side. It drilled into the shim.
Here's the burned hole on the bass side. Perfect!
A slight chunk dug out of the op.
Glued and clamped.
There's a gap so I filled it with amber tinted super glue.
Scraped and sanded the fretboard extension area.
The neck joint dried.
The neck dried.
Drilled the hole thru the heel, on center, but slightly out of level. I tilled the drill up in the back to straighten the hole.
Drilled thru the heel to make the hole in the neck block.
The screw installed.
The final hole.
On the inside.
About to make the flat on the heel.
Cut the slots.
Filing the flat.
Just about there.
Done!
The neck installed!
After finding the action is very high, I went into neck reset mode. Filing and taper sanding the heel.
Got it right on the first try!
I scraped the filled area on the top to reduce the shiny reflection at the edge of the fretboard extension area.
Applied fish glue to the top and the bottom of the fretboard extension.
Clamped!!
But nearly a year later, there is a problem. He first contacted me on July 31st, but wasn’t able to find the time to drive down until yesterday. He had taken it out of the case and noticed the action was high, then found a gap at the heel. It hadn’t been dropped, but there might have been some enthusiastic playing by some kids at a recent family gathering.
He drove down yesterday, stayed semi-locally overnight, delivered it to me this morning, then he took the ferry to Long Island NY to visit his family. He’s planning on drive back Wednesday. That means I have to get the whole repair done TODAY! Including gluing the fretboard extension back to the top!
I took a half day, leaving at 10am. Then the fun began! I wasn’t sure what to expect, but whatever it was, I was planning on converting it to a bolt on, putting a screw thru the heel into the neck block to be sure this is a permanent fix. I had already bought a #10 x 2-1/2” stainless steel pan head sheet metal screw. It may not be pretty, but it’ll be solid! With the time constraint, there aren’t too many options. I HAD to get the joint back together today, then let the glue dry for 12 hours before putting full string tension on it. And be sure the neck alignment is correct.
OBSERVATIONS: The strings were loosened, but the neck is stiff, the gap doesn’t move. The heel gap is .05”. I can’t measure the neck projection since I can’t close the heel gap. The action is very high (see the picture with the heel gap and no string tension), although I didn’t measure it because of the heel gap (it wouldn’t be the exact action) and not wanting to stress the old strings.
DAY 1 (12/5/23) – I put the guitar in the neck jig and attempted to close the gap. It closed maybe .02”, but after releasing the clamp it sprung back to .05”. Not good. Removed the strap button and put it in a small zip lock bag. Capoed the strings behind the nut and at the 7th fret (to try to minimize string tangling). Loosened the strings and removed the bridge pins, putting them in the bag with the strap button, and removed the strings from the bridge.
Put the heat shield on the top and used the halogen light and spatulas to loosen the fretboard. WOW!! Almost a half hour of heating and struggling!! That fish glue is gooey!!!
Since there’s a huge heel gap, I know the steam is going to pour out of it and the neck isn’t going to come off, or it would take a long time with probably lots of finish blushing. I had designed a 14th fret drill jig that will intersect the tapered dovetail, and hopefully allow the “heat sticks” to soften the glue and remove the neck. This is the maiden voyage!! I put a piece of tape at 4” on a 1/16” diameter x 6” long drill. This will drill a 3” deep hole. The treble side hole definitely hit wood. The bass side hole hit almost nothing. I also found the body of the drill jig needs to be longer to make it easier to clamp, about another ½” on the 15th fret end, and about 2.5” on the 13th fret end. The next problem is WHERE are the heat sticks?? I haven’t used them in a year or more. I put them somewhere while cleaning up my workbench. I found them in a cabinet. I sprayed some water into the heel gap, and in the holes, put the 3-1/4” long heat sticks into he holes, leaving ¼” exposed to be able to pull them out with pliers (the sticky glue won’t let them leave). At 12 minutes the top of the heel was very hot, but the bottom was not. Removed the heat sticks with the pliers (the treble side was very difficult) and wiggled. The neck was quite loose, but not as much on the bass side. Some end pressure and more wiggling. NOPE!! The treble side of the fretboard was up about 1/8” but the bass side hardly moved at all. Took the guitar out of the jig. Sprayed water in the sides of the heel, put the guitar back in the neck jig, injected more water into each hole, and put the 4-1/4” heat sticks in to get the heat to the bottom of the dovetail (the ends don’t get as hot). Heated another 7 minutes, removed the heat sticks and the neck just about fell off! The drill jig went right down the edge of the dovetails, as expected! Over 2 hours to get the neck off! AND!! The dovetail piece I had originally made DIDN’T fail! WHAT cause the heel to separate?? I always make the joint tight!
I used the hair dryer to dry both parts. Used super glue to re-attach a small piece of top that the spatula dug up on the bass side. There was a gap on the outer edge, so I used amber tinted super glue to fill the gap. Lots of sanding & scraping to get that area flat. And sanded two parts of the neck joint and got it fitting together with the fretboard flush with the top. It feels good! No slop!
Removed the lower screw from the dovetail block. It is 1” long, and 5/8” into the neck. It definitely wasn’t loose or stripped!
Used a long .122” diameter drill to drill thru the neck heel from the inside, paying more attention to coming out in the middle vs. a vertical tilt, just a little bit off. Put the neck in the pocket, held it tight, and used the same drill to drill thru the neck block. Then I opened the hole in the neck block to .140” diameter (the minor diameter of the screw thread), and opened the clearance hole in heel to .203, starting with .156” and then .188”. Used a .020” saw to make cuts in the heel a little more than 3/16” away from center, then filed between the cuts to get an approx. 3/8” wide flat for the head of the screw to rest on. Colored the bare wood with mahogany marker.
Put the neck & body together, inserted the screw, and tightened it. It looks great!!
It took 15 minutes to separate the tangled 12 strings and attach them to the bridge with the pins. Tightened the strings to “about D”, a few a bit over. The octave G broke. No surprise. The BIG surprise is the action is 11/64” low D and 9/64” high D!! WAAAAH??!! The neck relief is OK. The neck is centered. Before tightening the strings there was about a .005” heel gap. Now there is an approx. .010”/.015” heel gap. Maybe the wood compressing slightly under the screw head. Removing the screw, I find the screw head did sink in a little on the bass side, the flat must not be perfectly perpendicular to the screw.
Well, the action is way too high!! And I have no idea why!! Onward to neck reset number 2! Undercut the heel with the 1/8” ball burr and the Dremel. Set the tape on the heel at .05”, filed & sanded to the tape. Put the guitar in the neck jig and tuned to “D”. The action is 3/32” low D and 1/16” high D. Sold!
That only took a little over ½” hour, not bad. I’m glad I checked, although I have no idea why the action was so far off. I didn’t check the initial action because of the loose heel, but it was really high. The .05” heel gap wouldn’t have caused action that high.
It lives again! Well, after a few minor details to check before gluing the fretboard.
I had filled an area of the top at the edge of the fretboard extension with amber tinted super glue, I scraped that a little to eliminate the shiny areas. Then I applied fish glue to the bottom of the fretboard extension and the top, attached the neck, installed the screw (leaving it slightly loose), clamped the guitar in the neck jig, installed the 4 sets of outer strings & tuned to have some tension on the neck to pull it into the body, tightened the screw, and clamped the fretboard down in 2 places. I also put the (4) additional bridge pins in the holes and reinstalled the strap button. No parts left behind!
It's done for now!! The drying time for fish glue is 12 hours. It will be clamped for 10.5 hours before I’ll have to unclamp it to bring it to work. I’ll heat the fretboard extension with the hair dryer a couple of times to speed up the drying. I’ll have to find a place to put it in the bedroom so I can quickly unclamp it, put it in the case, and leave for work early in the morning.
So, I guess a ONE DAY neck reset is possible!! As long as it’s done with a heat stick and not flooded with steam. Although they typically need some fret levelling, which would add another day.
I had originally made a detailed plan of how I was going to remove the neck and convert it to bolt on. Somehow, that changed, A LOT!! I made quite a few adjustments as I went, as I thought of better ways to do things, or as an additional problem was presented.
But, in the end, it was finished in about 6 hours. I’m glad I took a half day vacation, otherwise I would have been up VERY late!
The action with no string tension was high!
The heel gap.
Getting ready to do battle!
Heating the fretboard extension.
Getting under the fretboard extension. It was really tough!! The fish glue I use is really gooey when it's heated!
Wet the 14th fret.
Pulled the 14th fret.
Use a 3D printed drill jig to drill (2) compound angle holes into the neck joint. I had 3D modelled the neck joint and used that to design the drill jig.
It worked!
You can see the burn mark make by the heat stick!! Perfectly down the treble side of neck joint!
You can't see a burned hole on the bass side. It drilled into the shim.
Here's the burned hole on the bass side. Perfect!
A slight chunk dug out of the op.
Glued and clamped.
There's a gap so I filled it with amber tinted super glue.
Scraped and sanded the fretboard extension area.
The neck joint dried.
The neck dried.
Drilled the hole thru the heel, on center, but slightly out of level. I tilled the drill up in the back to straighten the hole.
Drilled thru the heel to make the hole in the neck block.
The screw installed.
The final hole.
On the inside.
About to make the flat on the heel.
Cut the slots.
Filing the flat.
Just about there.
Done!
The neck installed!
After finding the action is very high, I went into neck reset mode. Filing and taper sanding the heel.
Got it right on the first try!
I scraped the filled area on the top to reduce the shiny reflection at the edge of the fretboard extension area.
Applied fish glue to the top and the bottom of the fretboard extension.
Clamped!!